New Distributor / Starting Issue

1952 - 1968, M38A1, M170, questions, discussions, regarding anything related to the M38a1 series.
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bravo2uniform
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New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by bravo2uniform » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:42 am

I have read a number of articles on the site about the M38A1, timing, and the electrical system. However, I am still a novice. I read my manual and did as many troubleshooting procedures as I could understand. I apologize in advance for my ineptness and verbosity.

Situation: I recently completed the restoration of my 1953 M38A1. I did not rebuild the engine, although I did convert it back to 24V from 12V. I installed a NOS distributor and she was running fine (except for a few shake down / punch list items) until the distributor seized, causing the tip of the shaft to snap off. I reinstalled a re-built distributor but can not get her to start. The failure mode of the distributor is not known, although the collar (7351133) appears to have seized against the timing advance / retard bracket.
  • 1) The coil and condenser are new and test as functional on the multimeter. The points are at the same setting as before the re-build.
    2) There is spark
    3) I have moved the distributor through a range of advance / retard settings
    • A. At about 2/3 of the adjustment for advance, it will "puff", not backfire, but make a loud puff out of the muffler. I assume this is fuel vapor although I have not ascertained that fact.
      B. At the mid-point of the advance / retard adjustment it will backfire out of the carburetor.
      C. A small shot of ether appears to have no effect, I expected, from my farm life experiences, that a small shot of ether would make the engine at least grumble a little.
    4) The timing gear was not messed with and is in good shape.
    5) After rebuilding the distributor, I simply reinserted it into the engine with the tab seated as per the manual.
    6) The oil pump has not been messed with and appears to function properly. Nothing was done to change the indexing.
    7) Batteries are charged and the starter appears to be turning at the correct RPM.
    8.) No other systems were tinkered with during the troubleshooting for this issue - I assume it is getting fuel, etc. since those were not touched.
    9) The shake down issues were a) an overheating problem (which could be related to a timing issue) b) the amp gauge not registering.
Any help would be appreciated.
Joe

1953 M38A1 + M100 trailer

1986 M1009


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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by muttguru » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:40 pm

bravo2uniform wrote: 5) After rebuilding the distributor, I simply reinserted it into the engine with the tab seated as per the manual.
Joe, on the M151-series it is possible to insert the distributor 180 degrees out-of-order.... and it happens fairly often. I'm not sure if this can happen on the M38-series....but if it can be inserted wrong, then that could be your problem. I'm sure that Ben will chime in here.
ps... I presume you fished out the broken tip of the distributor? Were the matching tangs of the oil-pump still intact?
Ken
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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by JMZ421 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:32 pm

The plug wires; are they situated correctly. Possible because I have done it. But, I agree with previous post . John

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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:50 am

The slot in the Jeep Oil Pump is offset, and if the Oil Pump is not disturbed or removed, the new distributor will drop in correctly by rotating the rotor and pushing down on the distributor. Did you have to drive your distributor down with force? Like with a hammer and block of wood? If this happened, the oil pump slot and tang on the distributor shaft are improperly alligned and this situation could cause the shaft to bind, seize, and break off the tip of the shaft.
The best instruction with excellent illustration is on Page 117, Figure 81, TM9-8015-1, ENGINE and CLUTCH for M-38A1.
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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by bravo2uniform » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:22 pm

muttguru wrote:
bravo2uniform wrote: 5) After rebuilding the distributor, I simply reinserted it into the engine with the tab seated as per the manual.
Joe, on the M151-series it is possible to insert the distributor 180 degrees out-of-order.... and it happens fairly often. I'm not sure if this can happen on the M38-series....but if it can be inserted wrong, then that could be your problem. I'm sure that Ben will chime in here.
ps... I presume you fished out the broken tip of the distributor? Were the matching tangs of the oil-pump still intact?
Ken
Yes, it was quite a difficult task to fish out that pesky piece of metal. I ran an endoscope down and it looked OK.
Joe

1953 M38A1 + M100 trailer

1986 M1009

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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by bravo2uniform » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:29 pm

Ben Dover wrote:The slot in the Jeep Oil Pump is offset, and if the Oil Pump is not disturbed or removed, the new distributor will drop in correctly by rotating the rotor and pushing down on the distributor. Did you have to drive your distributor down with force? Like with a hammer and block of wood? If this happened, the oil pump slot and tang on the distributor shaft are improperly alligned and this situation could cause the shaft to bind, seize, and break off the tip of the shaft.
The best instruction with excellent illustration is on Page 117, Figure 81, TM9-8015-1, ENGINE and CLUTCH for M-38A1.
No, it dropped right into place - no force at all. BUT - When I couldn't get it to start the first time I had a mechanic set the timing for me. The conditions now are very similar to the conditions when I tried to start it the first time (immediately after the rebuild), and I am wondering if found it 180 out and he reinserted the first distributor incorrectly. That would explain the first distributor's failure. I have never had to force either distributor in but the mechanic said he had a problem and I simply never followed up with him on what it was.

I need to research the oil pump indexing and see if I can figure out how to tell if it is indexed 180 out. I think we are on to something.
Joe

1953 M38A1 + M100 trailer

1986 M1009

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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by artificer » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:47 pm

With 1 TDC compression, make sure you are taking into account the 'correct' DOR & that the point rubbing block is just starting to open the points, when the rotor is adjacent/pointing to number 1 plug lead from the cap.
Not much to get wrong & you did say you had spark.
Sometimes folk get confused with DOR & try to set the distributor point opening a about t or when they are closing.
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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:06 pm

I can scan figure 81, Page 117 of the M-38A1 engine manual (It's the best illustration of all the Jeep factory and Army TM Manuals) Friday and post Friday PM.
I can't imagine anyone forcing the the Distributor into the offset slot, but it is a common event done by those installing M-37 Distributors into Civilian and WC blocks. I always ask the installer if they matched the Oil Pump and Distributor, and get a response that they seated the distributor using a block of wood and a hammer.
There are some tha seemt perform miracles with a hammer. :wink:
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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by MASH_4077 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:11 pm

Also make sure your plug wires are in the correct place. I had an issue with my jeep last summer after changing points and it not starting. It would hit on one cylinder and that was it. So #1 plug wire was in the correct place. And cylinders 2, 3, and 4 were all out of order. You might double check that.
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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by bravo2uniform » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:59 pm

Ben Dover wrote:I can scan figure 81, Page 117 of the M-38A1 engine manual (It's the best illustration of all the Jeep factory and Army TM Manuals) Friday and post Friday PM.
I can't imagine anyone forcing the the Distributor into the offset slot, but it is a common event done by those installing M-37 Distributors into Civilian and WC blocks. I always ask the installer if they matched the Oil Pump and Distributor, and get a response that they seated the distributor using a block of wood and a hammer.
There are some tha seemt perform miracles with a hammer. :wink:
Thanks, I got it from my manual and read it tonight. I also pulled a couple of good discussions off the forum to augment my knowledge. I think we'll get her going again soon. I'll update you all soon.
Joe

1953 M38A1 + M100 trailer

1986 M1009

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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:43 am

The installed position of the slot in the Oil Pump at TDC of #1 is the same for MB thru M-38A1 and CJ-2A thru CJ-5. It cant change by itself unless the oil pump has been removed.
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Re: New Distributor / Starting Issue

Post by bravo2uniform » Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:28 am

Ben Dover wrote:The installed position of the slot in the Oil Pump at TDC of #1 is the same for MB thru M-38A1 and CJ-2A thru CJ-5. It cant change by itself unless the oil pump has been removed.
Called the "mechanic" and he said that, "yes", the oil pump was indexed 180 out and he just put the distributor in anyway. So now we know.

Thanks for the help. I really appreciate the concept of the forum and I hope I can return the favor to someone else one day.
Joe

1953 M38A1 + M100 trailer

1986 M1009


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