Questions for Ramsey Winch installation

[ArisL]

Hi all again,
I have a Ramsey on the M38 but have a problem with the long shaft: It bumps on the flywheel housing and gets bent by the front axle when the Jeep springs down low.

Maybe I have the wrong parts, or parts missing and chances are that everything has been mounted not right (or a combination of those)

Here is what I have:

A Ramsey winch, showing 51 on the lower side, where the shaft comes out. Is this the correct Ramsey? I don’t have it’s original frame, so it may be sitting either high or low.

The PTO stamping says KOENIG Iron Works, Houston Texas Model 40, WO 48 202 and has TWO operational levers. Is this the correct PTO? I have seen only single lever PTO’s in the postings and the boxes look different.

The hanger bearing is bolted to the tranny cross-member, vertically, from the top; It stands next to the vertical brace where (I believe) the stay cable is attached. Is this the proper place for the hanger to be mounted?

The exhaust pipe is also routed from under the cross-member, which must be wrong; apparently someone took the easy way out, not knowing how to install things properly.

(BTY, the pics are small but can be clicked on to be seen bigger. How can i post larger pics?)

[Rod]

Aris,

I have made some very detailed pictures of my Ramsey winch installation. Since Cuz has them on his website maybe he can post the link here for you to see.

Regarding the PTO - The PTO you have is not correct since it is the Koeing 2 level civilian PTO. The proper PTO is a Ramsey winch.

Regarding the Hanger Bearing - While the Hanger bearing that you have appears to be correct, the way it is mounted is not. On the early M38 bellhousing there is a place for a stud to be screwed into the bellhousing. Also there is suppose to be a support strap from the smaller hole in the back of the mounting tab to another bolt on bellhousing. This strap puts a slight angle in the Hanger bearing (front lower, rear higher) to help with clearence. Here is the picture of the correct PTO

Regarding the PTO shafts - It looks like your PTO shaft & universals may be home built. The correct setup would include 2 PTO shafts (1 long shaft and 1 short shaft).

Again, maybe Cuz will post the link to his website so you can look at the pictures of my winch.

[Rod]

Aris,

I have made some very detailed pictures of my Ramsey winch installation. Since Cuz has them on his website maybe he can post the link here for you to see.

Regarding the PTO - The PTO you have is not correct since it is the Koeing 2 level civilian PTO. The proper PTO is a Ramsey winch. Here is the picture of the correct PTO


Regarding the Hanger Bearing - While the Hanger bearing that you have appears to be correct, the way it is mounted is not. On the early M38 bellhousing there is a place for a stud to be screwed into the bellhousing. Also there is suppose to be a support strap from the smaller hole in the back of the mounting tab to another bolt on bellhousing. This strap puts a slight angle in the Hanger bearing (front lower, rear higher) to help with clearence.

Regarding the PTO shafts - It looks like your PTO shaft & universals may be home built. The correct setup would include 2 PTO shafts (1 long shaft and 1 short shaft).

Again, maybe Cuz will post the link to his website so you can look at the pictures of my winch.

[Cuz]

As you can see in Rod's photo the Ramsey PTO brings the winch drive shaft closer to the engine and higher up.



The Ramsey civvy PT-1 series above moves the winch drive shaft lower and further from the engine. The Koenig 40 and 41's are about the same length and for the wagons the same drop angle.


Here's a closeup side view of Rod's Ramsey 105 PTO


Here you can see the winch drive shaft is slightly higher than the steering drag link.


Here is view from the front side of the shaft bearing support.


This drawing is from the M38 manual


Here you see how the Koenigs compare to the civilian Ramseys. Even the civvy PT1J Ramsey is too wide for the M38 installation.


Here you see the correct Ramsey model 105 PTO for the M38 and the M38A1

As an aside I have been trying for 2 years now to get a winch owner to fill in these dimensions.

[ECVJeeps]

I do have 1 (one) reproduction Ramsey 50 or 50R winch frame left in stock if you
are interested in it?
$300 + shipping from Halifax, Canada.
There are pictures of an original 50R winch and frame here: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showgal ... p?cat=1082
The first picture in Cuz’s post is the M38 that I did a few years back.

More pictures of the winch and frame are located here: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showgallery.php?cat=633
Here is a picture of the repo winch frame I have:

Original on left - Repo on right - For test fitting - Ramsey 50R above

[James L]

Dear Sir the U joints on winch is not the right one ,the hanger bearing is mounted wrong, and you have the wrong P.T.O. the good news is i have all the parts you need NEW. if intrested e-mail me at jfl47@roadrunner.com jim

[ArisL]

Thank you all for the detailed help. I had seen already Kuz’s pics but needed the clarifications.
One question: My Ramsey is not a 50, but a 51.What is the difference, are they both for the M38?
Also, has anyone connected successfully the Koenig PTO I have, to the Ramsey winch? Having it installed already and working somehow, maybe I can improve the shafts to make work better.
Pat, besides the frame for the Ramsey, , do you also have more parts? Pls email me at asterix@hol.gr

[Cuz]

The model 50 was the correct factory winch for the M38 and it was a 3500 pound winch. The Army eventually stocked and serviced in the field with the model 50R which is a 5000 pound winch. Can't help you with a model 51 Ramsey. I don't recall one. I believe you have a 50R and the data tag is missing. The 51 you must have taken from the left side gear box housing which is the casting number for that one housing. Pat's frame would correct your visible installation and with some tweaking to the bearing mounting you can get the needed clearance for the drive shaft and use the Koenig PTO until you can find a reasonably priced Ramsey 105 PTO.

[ArisL]

OK, it took me some time but I managed to connect the Ramsey with my Koenig PTO. With the help from Pat and this posting, I relocated the hanger bearing, made new shafts and now my Ramsey works!

Now with more questions to set it all right:

Is it correct for the winch to pull-in the cable using the revesre gear, or is my Keonig maybe turning the wrong way? I expected it to pull-in the cable using the 3 forward gears, but then the reverse may be the more appropriate, having the closest ratio.

On lubrication, should I fill it with gear oil to the overflow side plugs, or higher? I am asking this because if I fill it just to the overflow plugs, it seems to me that the main shaft and it’s coupling might not get enough oil on it.

On the original cable layout, is this how it should be set up, with the chain, hook etc as shown here?

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showgal ... p?cat=1082

Is there a canvas cover that goes on it as shown in another picture? Finally I can’t get the cable to stay put and look as nice, as with the lever uncoupled, it slacks away, and if it’s coupled then I'm afraid someone might accidentally shift it in and rip everything off. What is the proper setup?

Thanks ahead guys!

[James L]

Dear Sir i have the right ramsey # 50 P.T.O. all the right drive shafts and U joints for sale. all U joints and shafts are new, p.t.o. is an excellent good take out. jfl47@roadrunner.com thanks jim

[SteveJ]

Hello all.

The photo in the above post that is captioned (The Koenig above moves the winch drive shaft lower and further from the engine) is not a Koenig PTO but a Ramsey PT-1F.

I have used the following winch PTO combinations on my M38 over the years. All with sucess but bearing limitations.

Viking 8000lb angle iron frame. fairlead mounted on bumper. standard shafts farm implement type bearing hanger and Koenig PTO. Con - PTO drop is too much and exhaust is displaced, PTO upper case touches the floor pan and chaffes it a small ammount and tends to thump once in awhile. forward standard universal touches steering gear when steering turned left to lock. (this one wakes you up).

Ramsey 246 8000lb angle iron frame fairlead mounted on bumper standard shafts and bearing hanger, Koenig PTO. Con - PTO drop is too much and exhaust is displaced, PTO upper case touches the floor pan and chaffes it a small ammount. forward standard universal touches steering gear when steering turned left to lock.

Ramsey 246 8000lb angle iron frame fairlead mounted on bumper standard shafts and Ramsey PT1-F PTO. Con - PTO drop is too much and exhaust is displaced, forward standard universal touches steering gear when steering turned left to lock.

Ramsey 50 Ramsey with correct frame and fairlead, shafts with slim joints and bell housing hanger and Ramsey PT1-F PTO. Con - PTO drop is too much and exhaust is displaced.

Ramsey 50 with correct frame and fairlead. Ramsey shafts with slim joints and bell housing hanger and Ramsey 105A PTO. Fits and operates excellent. No cons.

Winch cover is available from Beechwood Canvas.

There was a lever latch installed at the PTO handle to prevent accidental engagement of the PTO.

[ArisL]

Thanks for the details Steve,

Could someone post a picture of the safety latch on the operating lever ?

[SteveJ]

Here is the pto breakdown from the parts list for the M38 and M38A. Item N is the lever latch.

[ArisL]

I understand now, unfortunatelly this won't help my set-up as I have the Koenig PTO, I imagined the safety was on the engaging lever right on the Ramsey winch. But thanks for the help anyway Steve!

[SteveJ]

Hello Aris

I dont see why it will not work with the Koenig PTO as it attaches to the Floor of the M38 using the screw hole's for the cover plate. It is not part of the Ramsey PTO. The actuating handles are very similar. I see now that you have a twin stick PTO my Koenig had a single stick though I guess you could build something to work.