M38 USAF again..

[WTB151]

I am currently restoring an 1952 M38 and I want to restore them in OD as an USAF Jeep.

I need some help on several questions.

Did anybody knows how long the M38 was in service for the USAF?

What will be the correct marking for the Korean war period June 1950 until Sept 1953?

What will be the correct marking for the 60´s?

Were there stars on the jeeps?

From that what I know comes with the USAF OD of the 60´s the black marking:

U S AIR FORCE - 2" Letters
52KXXXX - 2" Letters
For Official Use Only - 1" Letters

Is there known an M38 USAF Jeep with this black markings?

If any one could point me in the right direction with pictures, and other info as well, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!!!

[Rich Saylor]

From what I've learned by talking to AF vets, they preferred to not have stars on their Jeeps, which of course were painted on by the units they were assigned to, not Willys. Some USAF Jeeps also had the spare tire relocated to the right side, and the jerrycan & its mount removed, as well as the rear seat, and the tailgate fixing bolts removed & support chains installed, so they could use their Jeeps to haul stuff around. Some USAF Jeeps were repainted Strata Blue (some may have been painted this color at the factory???), tho whether or not this occurred during the active conflict I do not know. I do know that M38's in Korea during the period of actual shooting were pretty rare, as there were lots of WW2 Jeeps to go around. The rest I cannot help you with.

[Bill F]

Here are the only markings I found on My USAF m38. My was blue never OD.

Hood number

2in Letters

U.S.A.F
N-1346

that is all I found

[Cuz]

All production M38's left Willys in OD. Early M38A1 production left Willys in OD

Interviews with Willys factory employees support the above statement. No one recalls M38's and M38A1's leaving the factory in any color other than OD until the about 1954/55.

There are no existing dated photos of an M38 painted USAF strata blue before 1954. There are many dated photos of the M38 and M38A1 in Korea between the summer 1952 and the end of hostilities Sep 1953 and they all are OD.

With that said, the USAF made a slow transition from the old pre 1948 Army uniforms, vehicle paint schemes and colors and regulations. During this time many USAF vehicles are seen with both Army and USAF markings. The Army vehicle registration numbers were still displayed on Strata blue USAF vehicles thru the mid to late 50's.

By 1960 the only OD USAF vehicles normally found were those asigned to rapid deployment units like the Red Horse Civil Engineers units and the Mobile Communications units. Outside the United States it was the theater commander's choice on vehicle color and markings. But generally Strata blue was the color on most non-tactical USAF vehicles.

During my three SEA tours our vehicles colors varied by squadron and intended use. Many USAF security police vehicles would be OD with black markings while flightline service trucks would be Strata blue, and munitions vehicles would be a mix of strata blue and OD. Fire trucks were often mixed with some Red, some yellow and a few OD.

The national star often seen on Army vehicles was not a big USAF thing. Their purpose was to help with a speedy ID of the vehicle's owner from the air. Since we were responsible for maintaining air superiority in a theater of operations it would make us look like we weren't very confident in our aviator's prowess by adding the stars. As Rich said they were NOT painted on the jeeps by Willys.

By 1970 it was very difficult to find an active USAF M38.

So as a quick wrap, I would say use these periods as a guide for coloring of your M38 and A1:

1-1950 thru 1954 OD 2430, white markings and seldom use stars.

2-1954 thru 1960 is a transitional period where some Army markings stayed with the jeeps as they slowly switched to Strata Blue with Registration Yellow markings. I have photos of both OD and Strata blue M38's during this period with both Army registration numbers and the new USAF numbering system. By 1960 the 7, 8 & 9 digit US Army hood numbers were history.

3-1960 thru the 70s saw the USAF rapid deployment vehicles and those in war zones switch to the newer green OD with black markings.

I and Ryan Miller own M38/M38A1/M170/M606/CJV35 specific web sites and forums that have most of this data and photos stored there. Our sites cater to all the 1950 thru 1971 Willys Kaiser produced military jeeps.

http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?name=Forums
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/M38-M38A1-M606/

[WTB151]

Thanks thats a big help!!!!!!!

[Bill F]

I am not going to get back into whate I believe my m38 was painted from the factory. I have my evidence you have yours. All I know is the only markings on mine was the hood number.

[prdinvt]

i recently purchased a 1950 M38 and the PO told me that it was a survivor from the plattsburg, NY AFB. It appears that it was originally painted strata blue with yellow 2inch solid stencil: USAF 236 #### (cant remember exact numbers, but it does start with 236); only the hood is stenciled, no star, and another small 1 inch stencil next to the hand brake lever marking "TP 28". the only evidence of any OD paint is on the engine block. Ive checked out the scratches, paint chips, and all the tight areas and it appears to have always been blue, but i am no expert.... its just what i see.

[Rich Saylor]

Forgive me from chipping in on this again, but.... car restoration is a very tricky process of discovery, and even though a host of former employees from whatever factory is being discussed "swear on a stack of bibles" that so-and-so was ALWAYS like this or that, or NEVER like this or that, the fact remains that only physical evidence survives to tell the true tale, whether it's photographic material, writtten material, or a completely unrestored vehicle (with credidible provenance, of course) or lacking the above, what's left of a vehicle. Though it's probably a good thing to accept with little question testimony regarding MOST specifications or building techniques, still in the face of surviving vehicles with non-standard/undocumented equipment, dimensions, upholstery not previously known, or color schemes, and so on, it's very risky to trust the memories of long-ago employees, etc. to the point of destroying/tossing seemingly original vehicle components or restoring them to so-called "original, correct" specifications on the basis that "the factory never did it that way". In such a fashion, to the eternal regret of later, more knowledgable restorers/owners, the true original specifications or fitments of many classic vehicles have been lost forever, simply because amateur (pr pro!) restorers believed the "experts" in too many cases- and redid their vehicles to a supposedly original specification which as it later turned out was incorrect- they should have followed their noses and the evidence of their own eyes, instead!

I do not claim that Willys painted any M38's strata blue to begin with, with no underlying coat of OD. However, if you guys that tell us all that your particular M38 was in fact only strata blue- no OD at all- and you've been very, very careful to check it out- then I'd go with strata blue, myself.

Some hard to paint (and harder to strip completely, unless you dip the whole vehicle in a tank of stripper!) places to check would be- under factory-applied sealant, in the interior headlamp areas, in the toolbox, underneath the dash/cowling area, and any other areas that any repainter would have been unlikely to strip prior to repainting. If NO OD is found under the strata blue anywhere, that's a pretty good indication that it was most likely only painted blue, but if ANY OD is found under the strata blue- anywhere at all- most likely the vehicle was stripped and repainted blue. BTW many small components were painted OD by small equipment suppliers, not by Willys- like the data plate mounting panels (on later vehicles, early M38's didn't have them), the instrument panel, and a whole host of small bits bolted to the Jeep. So, those small components were most likely to have OD as the original color, strata blue tub. etc. or not.

M38 chassis were supplied painted black to Willys and only given a colorcoat, whether it was blue or OD. If you have a chassis that's blue with primer underneath, rather than black, I would suspect it was stripped & repainted. The tubs, etc. were painted in red oxide primer, then the colorcoat (OD or blue). BTW I do not recommend using red oxide primer on the major components, original or not- I highly suggest using zinc-bearing epoxy primer, instead. Much better! (If you paint it yourself, tho, be sure to wear proper filters & masks- the stuff is pretty toxic!)

Trust your noses!

[Cuz]

Two blue M38's that both came from the same USAF base are not the best evidence that the factory drawings and the testimony of several Willys employees is BS.

I explained this once and I'll do it again. I spent 22 years in the USAF. WE had vats large enough to drop several B52 engine cowlings in and after several hours they were devoid of any evidence of any paint. We use to slip our vehicle parts in those tanks often. If you left aluminum or other non-ferrous metals in there overnight there was not a lot of metal left.

I believe our factory evidence is much stronger than the two blue tubs which I will bet were very completely stripped and repainted by the servicing motor pool in an attempt to provide quality refinishing for their users

If you firmly believe your tub was never OD that's fine with me then repaint it blue. If you want your jeep to be an Army jeep then do your own soul searching and decide what you want to do with your property. It's all your choice.

For hard evidence of period correct USAF markings visit my photo site:
http://usafjeeps.mypicgallery.com/

[Bill F]

I will always hold that my tub was blue and only blue. However the hood, fenders and grill where OD. what I think happened at the factory is that they just pulled the already painted front end parts from the factory and sprayed them blue to match the tub. I sanded my hood right down and found the orginal hood number of USAF N-1346, there was no other numbers on my hood but I did find OD paint. I believe the tub to be orginally blue because it has blue paint where no other painters would have sprayed, such as on the hat channels where it bolts to the frame, and up under the cowl, as well as behind every bolt on part.

The one thing I would like to know is what the N stands for in my hood number.

[Cuz]

Original hood numbers on all production M38's were the standard US Army 7 and 8 digit numbers with no letters. The USAF did NOT adopt the new registration numbering system until the mid fifties. A 1954/55 USAF contracted M38A1 would have left Willys Blue with the new style registration numbers but no M38 did. In all likelyhood your hood's original 7 or 8 digit US Army number was completely removed by stripping because your jeep's unit of assignment probably didn't want the old Army registration number outline showing thru the USAF repaint. I also noticed the mention above of the original number on prdinvt's jeep being 236xxxx which would be a 1950 registration number.

We have both been down this road before and we'll both believe what we want to believe. I have no problem as long as both sides are clearly and honestly presented for all to view.

[Bill F]

Any idea what the N in my number stands for? As far as the orginal army number, When I sanded my hood I had one layer of red paint, followed by the blue, the od, then primer. On top of the od there was not number. Rember only my hood grill and fenders seem to have had od paint on them. So if they airforce did strip the tub and repaint it completly why did they not do the hood, and how come I never found orginal US Army hood numbers even though I found OD paint on the hood. Again my USAF number is N-1346 I will see if I can find a pic of my hood after I sanded it.

[Cuz]

You didn't find a US Army hood number on the OD layer on your hood because the USAF probably stripped the hood about 1952 or 53 when they moved the number down to the door sill area. Then in 54/55 they scrubbed the door sill area long Army registration number and went with the new single letter - 4 numeral system back up on the hood.

The simplest explanation for a blue only tub on a USAF M38 with OD front clip that was painted blue is the jeep had a serious rear ender collision and the USAF installed a new tub which was ordered from Willys in Strata Blue sometime between 1953 and the 70's.

The flow of USAF registration numbers on M38's went much like this:


This was the arrangement in 1949 on an MB. The USA hood number is still there but the US Army has been replaced with USAF and the "Official use only" has been added to the door sill area.


Here's another USAF MB in Korea circa 1951/52


Circa 1952 to 54 you see the original USA 20917267 hood number repeated with the US Air Force below the door sill.


Here's another circa 1952/54 USA 20921404

Usually marking changes were postponed until the jeep came due a repaint. In the last two photos you see the transition from OD to blue has occurred and the short new USAF numbers haven't started yet.


In this 1955 photo you see the first new style USAF registration number. If you look closely the hood has been repainted blue with no remaining traces of the old USA Hood # and the new USAF A-12273 replaces it. If you look at the door sill the old USA number has been painted out but the US Air Force remains. If you will also note the fenderwells are still OD2430 and the weathered edges of the blue on the fenders shows evidence of OD 2430 under it. The numbers and letters are still white here. I would place Bill F's front clip paint job from this era sometime between 1955 and 1960.


In this late 50's photo you see the next style of USAF short registration numbers where the year precedes a letter and then the registration sequence number. The letter designates the vehicle purpose or primary use. You'll also note the hood is no longer used for the reg. # and the USAF has switched to a safer tread design for paved surface use. Also you'll see the use of Registration Yellow for the lettering which I believe was introduced around 1958.


I like this photo and I am restoring my 51 to this configuration. This is 1960 and the newer style registraion number is in it's new location and in the registration yellow. Again note the tire tread and the use of chains on the rear only.


I know this is an 1965 CJ5 but the USAF system of marking here was circa 1965 thru the late 60's back on the hood.

[Bill F]

Wes,

Do you have an idea what the N would mean. Any place I can look it up? Everything you are stating could be possible. But with these old jeeps anything could have happened. Part of what makes them fun. My m38 came with a hard top on it, much like that pic you have, and the color I have is close to that. I have since sold the hard top. I really hope to have her on the road this year, and if I do she will be the only blue Jeep at the Weare NH show. I will attach a pic of the hood number after I sanded. When I repainted my tub I did paint the underside and firewall 24087 because I had a gallon of paint to use. It did spray on much better for me than the PPG paint I used for the rest of the tub. The PPG paint Code I used was U.S. Air Force Strata Bule PPG code 17634.


My jeep with new hood markings

Hood after sanding

[Joe Gopan]

I have body brackets removed from 1952 Yellow M-38 Jeeps from Dow Field around 1953 that have an original first coat of Strata Blue. Will post when I get a chance.